Do You Believe Men Walked on the Moon?

[Castle]

Not too long ago if someone had asked me this question I would have thought they were crackers.

I grew up when they couldn't even get a rocket into space without it blowing up. Then they were sending up the chimps and the monkees. We went out at night to watch, or try to spot the rockets pass overhead in the sky.

We watched the countdown to the blast offs on TV as big events, bigger than the Super Bowl.

We were thrilled when John Kennedy declared the race to the moon. And for us it was a race.

I watched the first moon landings on TV in 1968, and was proud and had no doubt.

But one day just in passing I half glanced at something questioning the reality of the moon landings, which I was in the motion of dismissing as another crackpot, when this phrase caught my eye.

"... they can't even put a toaster in space in 8 years."

Reread. "They put a man on the moon in 8 years, they can't even put a toaster in space in 8 years."

That stopped me in my tracks because it was more or less true.

How long does it take us to put anything in space now? Once the current shuttles are retired, how long is it going to be before we go up again? Five, six years? They didn't have computers or hardly any of the advanced technology or manufacturing that we now have, back then, yet they did it in 8 years. We are talking about taking at least another 11 years from now. Knowing how plans like these get delayed it will probably be a lot longer.

By 2020 it will be 72 years since we first claimed to land on the moon. If we take much longer almost everyone and anyone who was alive then will be dead, or at the very least too young when it happened to question discrepancies.

You might think they wouldn't lie about this. Or you might think, even if they would, the rest of the governments of the world would never conspire or collude to keep the silence.

Increasingly I wonder about this. Gary Powers was shot down in 1960 in a U2 spy plane flying over the USSR at 70,000 feet. This was a great scandal at the time that I remember well. At first the US denied and then admitted, that was the great shock.

So far so good, you might think, the truth finally did come out.

However, what I did not know until recently is:

After the Gary Powers matter was settled those U2 spy flights continued over the USSR for another 10 years. Both the US (whose flights they were)and the Soviets were well aware of the flights but neither side spoke of them.

This was a conspiracy of silence. The USSR kept quiet because to admit the continuing flights and their inability to do anything about it would be to admit their weakness. The US kept quiet because to talk about it would be to antagonize the Soviets.

If they could lie or be deceitful about something like this, it seems fully possible to me, that they could both lie and accept a winner in the space race to end it. Not that they did, but they could have. Especially since it seems to me that the main goal of the space race was to set up satellites.

Satellites are typically: "GPS satellites have transmitters that only deliver 27 watts from a distance of 20,200 km in orbit above the Earth."

"The average distance from Earth to the Moon is 384,403 kilometers."

That is quite a difference in distance, maybe not impossible but very large, especially considering you have to land and return. In addition at 20,000 kilometers a satellite is still somewhat protected by the earth's atmosphere, however thin it may be, at 384,000 km there is no protection at all.

So what do you think? Do you think men really landed on the moon? Or are they waiting for all the old people to die before they do it again for real?

Castle

[Kurt]

By 2020 it will be 72 years since we first claimed to land on the moon.

A quick correction:

2020
-1969
------
51

In 2020, it will be 50 years.

There's plenty of evidence prvong we walked on the moon. One peice of evidence is circumstantial, but worth considering...If we didn't make it to the moon, why didn't the USSR dispute it? They had the tech to know if we made it our not. They surely would have said something, under the circumstances of the time.

[ezrydn]

Working at JSC in Houston, I've had many occassions to meet with, discuss and have dinner with many of those who walked on the moon. After that, there's absolutely no doubt that they did what they said they did. Besides, how do you account for the mirade of rocks returned? Did they just jump into the bucket?

[Castle]

Originally Posted by Kurt

A quick correction:

2020
-1969
------
51

In 2020, it will be 50 years.

There's plenty of evidence prvong we walked on the moon. One peice of evidence is circumstantial, but worth considering...If we didn't make it to the moon, why didn't the USSR dispute it? They had the tech to know if we made it our not. They surely would have said something, under the circumstances of the time.

My math is off. I was thinking 2020 the whole time, which is about when they are planning to go back.

If we didn't make it to the moon, why didn't the USSR dispute it? They had the tech to know if we made it our not. They surely would have said something, under the circumstances of the time.

You would think so, but that's why I included the Gary Powers story to show that they could and would keep silent when it suited their purposes. Perhaps the space race was bankrupting them, perhaps they would have gone bankrupt a lot quicker than they did, prhaps all they really wanted was satellites in space focussed on earth, that's where the power is.

Working at JSC in Houston, I've had many occassions to meet with, discuss and have dinner with many of those who walked on the moon. After that, there's absolutely no doubt that they did what they said they did. Besides, how do you account for the mirade of rocks returned? Did they just jump into the bucket?

For whatever reason the fact that you talked to people who walked on the moon is the most convincing thing to me. I never have talked to people who did and I am sure I would find it persuasive if I did, just hearing you say it is persuasive. But it doesn't actually mean they did. The rocks, who knows how they got them?

The bigger question is, if they did go, why does it take them 8 years to put anything significant in space, and yet in the 60's they were able to go from ground zero almost to the moon in 8 years? And why is it going to take us so long to go back?

Castle

[ezrydn]

there's a big change in the cost of yesteryer and today. Orion is much more is than a lunar lander and an command module. It's not about the design as it the cost. Most space hardware is obsolete and new criteria and building of parts must be planned. It wont be quick and easy. At JSC. I've seen this in action and it's hot a quick job. Orion is a new bord and old Space shuttle gear won't work. THis tqkes time.

[The Clown]

Easy: In Kennedy's time, we were purpose-driven. We had a burning desire to beat the Soviets, to show we were the best, yadda yadda Cold War. Now, there's no real purpose to go to the moon. NASA is a bit controversial as a taxpayer-money wasting program, not like when it was the American way back in the day. Projects get delayed. We don't have a race anymore. Funding gets cut when there's a bad economy.

In short: people don't care about the space race like they used to, because we already won. It's not a race anymore.

As for the conspiracy of silence...many people involved with the original moon landing have died since. I would think that AT LEAST one of them would have nothing to lose and knew they were going to die. At that point, what's the purpose of keeping the secret? If it was faked, it would have gotten out by now.

Also: there's convincing evidence that it happened, but no convincing evidence that it didn't.

[ezrydn]

And it's not just the moon, either. I've had the ocassion to speak with a couple of ISS crew members and I see the same "stary-eyed" gaze in them that I remember from the Apollo crews. There's something "differnent" about them. It's like they've experienced the undescribable. John Young, who's flown just about everything there is to fly, was a moon-walker and as much of a talker that he is, he seems to run into a loss for words to describe his time on the moon's surface. It's like he's just in "awe" of the idea. Yet, he's always open to talk about it.

You see it in their faces when their minds return to that moment. NASA is truly a "family." And I don't see how that sort of "family secret" could be kept. Plus, it's a HUGE family!

[Kurt]

Hey Castle...

One thing to consider: Buzz Aldrin, the second guy to walk on the moon calls all this conspiracy stuff "historical vandalism", meaning it destroys the acccomplishments of the guys that went to the moon.

BTW, there's a carefully placed mirror on the moon that scientists on earth use to shoot laser beams to, and have the beam reflected back to earth, which allows them to measure the distance between earth and moon...This is pretty concrete evidence we did land on the moon.

[The Clown]

Originally Posted by Kurt

Hey Castle...

One thing to consider: Buzz Aldrin, the second guy to walk on the moon calls all this conspiracy stuff "historical vandalism", meaning it destroys the acccomplishments of the guys that went to the moon.

BTW, there's a carefully placed mirror on the moon that scientists on earth use to shoot laser beams to, and have the beam reflected back to earth, which allows them to measure the distance between earth and moon...This is pretty concrete evidence we did land on the moon.

Ah! How did I forget the mirror?! Great point.

[NEWK]

Yes, I do believe that twelve men walked on the surface of the Moon because the evidence strongly suggests that they did and the evidence to the contrary is flimsy and crumbles under critical analysis.

Now, I could do a point-by-point rebuttal of all of the hoaxers major arguments, but I've done that to death in other places and it never seems to get the point across. Instead, I'm going to write about what I think is the psychology behind these theories.

Whenever I hear about conspiracy theories, I can't help but think it's just a way for people with low self esteems to bloat their egos by convincing themselves that they've pulled the wool off of their own eyes and discovered the truth while the rest of us are mindless brainwashed government sheeple. I'm not saying that everyone who believes in these conspiracies is that way, since the hoaxers have done a good job of selling their ideas to the public so there are a lot of otherwise rational and intelligent people who haven't really looked into it who buy into the hoax theories.

Whenever I talk to these people, they always tell me the same things. They tell me to "do my research" or "wake up" et cetera. It's really condescending how they automatically assume that anyone who doesn't agree with them is at best a mindless government-brainwashed sheep or at worst is being paid off by the government to be a "propaganda artist" (Yes, I've been accused of this before....). To me, these thought patterns really scream that the originators of the hoax theories aren't interested in truth, but rather in boosting their own egos with their far-fetched delusions of grandeur. What better way to make yourself feel better than everyone else than by crafting complex delusions that everyone around you is brainwashed and you're the only one who can see beyond it.

So that's how I see it.

Hey, I'm kind of new here, but I enjoy debating about conspiracies a lot, especially in an environment where we're forced to play nice (a lot of these debates quickly turn nasty in other places). Are there other threads on particular conspiracy theories here? If not, I might have to start one.

[QuatuorMortis]

The most compelling piece of evidence that might spread doubts in the minds of those who believe astronauts landed on the moon is the Apollo 1 accident.

On January 27, 1967 three astronauts died when the command module was destroyed by a fire.

"...the astronauts' deaths were attributed to a wide range of lethal design hazards in the early Apollo command module. Among these were the use of a high-pressure 100 percent-oxygen atmosphere for the test, wiring and plumbing flaws, flammable materials in the cockpit (such as Velcro), an inward-opening hatch that would not open in this kind of an emergency and the flight suits worn by the astronauts." - Wikipedia

Given this poor performance by aeronautical engineers, it is a PRODIGIOUS ACHIEVEMENT that their work eventually resulted in a successful moon landing. It only took them 2.5 years to fix everything.

[NEWK]

Originally Posted by QuatuorMortis

The most compelling piece of evidence that might spread doubts in the minds of those who believe astronauts landed on the moon is the Apollo 1 accident.

On January 27, 1967 three astronauts died when the command module was destroyed by a fire.

"...the astronauts' deaths were attributed to a wide range of lethal design hazards in the early Apollo command module. Among these were the use of a high-pressure 100 percent-oxygen atmosphere for the test, wiring and plumbing flaws, flammable materials in the cockpit (such as Velcro), an inward-opening hatch that would not open in this kind of an emergency and the flight suits worn by the astronauts." - Wikipedia

Given this poor performance by aeronautical engineers, it is a PRODIGIOUS ACHIEVEMENT that their work eventually resulted in a successful moon landing. It only took them 2.5 years to fix everything.

In a machine as complex as the Apollo spacecraft were, with millions of individual components, there's millions of chances for something to go wrong. With so many variables, no one could predict every possible outcome. any vehicle powerful enough to get into space is usually so complex that no single one human could know everything about it, so you can see how problems could sneak up on these engineers like that.

Furthermore, you're not doing anything here to prove or disprove whether they actually did land on the Moon or not. You're just implying that it would be difficult. The evidence still suggests that it did happen.

[ezrydn]

All of the solo capsules and all of Gemini were flown with 100% oxygen atmosphere inside the capsule. Many flights of the Space Shuttle were flown without on-orbit inspections. All without a mishap.

This is how we learn. We learned through Apollo NOT to run such a rich mixture. We learned through the two shuttle losses NOT to fly in freezing temps and how to do on-orbit inspections and minor tile repairs.

This is the nature of safety in programs. It's the unexpected you have to be prepared for. On another note, what about Apollo 13? We learned something there, also. We were able to save a crew through the techs on the ground. Again, the unexpected. Some things we catch and some we don't. When we don't, it can cost lives. You'll have to admit, astronauts are a devoted class of individuals. They know the cost of a mistake or problem, yet they go ahead.

Also, I seriously doubt the education system is putting out engineers of the quality of the past.

[MrsLolaCastle]

Originally Posted by The Clown

Ah! How did I forget the mirror?! Great point.

Who placed the mirror on the moon? Or should I say what installed the mirror on the moon?

What about them golf balls on the moon while you're thinking about everyday items left on the moon...lol!

[Barcelona]

How long does it take us to put anything in space now? Once the current shuttles are retired, how long is it going to be before we go up again? Five, six years? They didn't have computers or hardly any of the advanced technology or manufacturing that we now have, back then, yet they did it in 8 years. We are talking about taking at least another 11 years from now. Knowing how plans like these get delayed it will probably be a lot longer.

Actually I read a similar article and I was struck by it as well! I had to look it up in wiki : last landing on moon was apollo 17 in 1972 - almost 40 years ago...
You know around 1990 my family owned a volkswagen convertible made in 1972 and that was pretty low tech! - whenever I saw some old news about the apollo program on television I was wondering how the heck they were able to achieve something like a moon landing with the technology availabe at that time

I am not a fan of conspiracy theories at all...

[Barcelona]

nobody wants to pick a fight with me??